This follows on from a thread on high tech hook link material where "Stroft" was mentioned.
I like to fish with small spiders and need a low dia hook length for them to work properly so I tried Stroft last weekend.
Using size 16/18 spiders I lost 3 good rainbows, all broken at the knot and all pretty much on the take.
I used a balanced outfit 4wt rod 4lbB.S. leader and a single fly and I haven't had this problem with other leaders. My normal leader is Airflo sightfree Fluorocarbon. I have however heard of this being a problem with some other pre - stretched / copolymer lines.
So what do you use, what knots do you use and what would you recommend
Full Version: Leader material
I use a furled leader of about 6' then a tippet of (for the fly sizes you mentioned) 6x Frog Hair. Works for me. The knots I use are figure of eight knots with either a tucked blood or Rapala loop knot for the fly. The loop knot is mainly reserved for spinner patterns where I find the resultant decrease in drag can up my take rate by 50%.
Cheers
OT
Cheers
OT
QUOTE (OwdTrout @ Apr 23 2009, 12:43 PM) 
I use a furled leader of about 6' then a tippet of (for the fly sizes you mentioned) 6x Frog Hair. Works for me. The knots I use are figure of eight knots with either a tucked blood or Rapala loop knot for the fly. The loop knot is mainly reserved for spinner patterns where I find the resultant decrease in drag can up my take rate by 50%.
Cheers
OT
Cheers
OT
Pretty similar set to me then. Furled leader around 6ft and then tippet to match the fly. I usually tie the fly with a grinner.
I think that these high tech copolymers or pre stretched lines have a problem because of the lack of stretch, and when you are retrieving a fly with the rod tip on the water and pointing straight down the line there is very little cushioning effect. The breaks were all on the take and the takes were pretty savage so I think that it may be just the wrong type of line for the fishing I do.
I will have to try this Frog hair, I hear good things about it
Cheers
Dave
With the low diameter monos there is a problem in the way they are used. I'll give an example.
An angler uses 5lb bs mono to his fly. When he sees the low diameter mono he buys 5 lb bs, that's what he uses. As a result two things happen. He gets more tangles and broken more often. "This low diameter mono is rubbish." He says. Then goes back to his old brand of standard mono.
This has happened loads of times, it shows a lack of understanding of the cast, and the uses of these monos. The advantage you gain from one of these monos is in increased bs of the mono. The tippet needs to be stiff enough to "carry" the fly through the cast, while being soft enough to give good presentation. The thing to do is choose a low diameter mono of the same diameter as your standard line. Probabily about 8 lbs. If he had done this the mechanics of the cast would not have been changed. The knot strength, though lower than his standard mono in 8 lbs bs, would be higher than that of the standard 5lbs mono.
That is why I stated the tippet size in X numbers, not breaking strain. X numbers are based on diameter. (They were the die sizes that gut was drawn through in the old days). My 5X frog hair is about 5lbs bs. Enormous for its diameter, but that diameter is needed to carry a fly of, say, size 14 or 16.
I hope that makes sense.
Cheers,
OT
An angler uses 5lb bs mono to his fly. When he sees the low diameter mono he buys 5 lb bs, that's what he uses. As a result two things happen. He gets more tangles and broken more often. "This low diameter mono is rubbish." He says. Then goes back to his old brand of standard mono.
This has happened loads of times, it shows a lack of understanding of the cast, and the uses of these monos. The advantage you gain from one of these monos is in increased bs of the mono. The tippet needs to be stiff enough to "carry" the fly through the cast, while being soft enough to give good presentation. The thing to do is choose a low diameter mono of the same diameter as your standard line. Probabily about 8 lbs. If he had done this the mechanics of the cast would not have been changed. The knot strength, though lower than his standard mono in 8 lbs bs, would be higher than that of the standard 5lbs mono.
That is why I stated the tippet size in X numbers, not breaking strain. X numbers are based on diameter. (They were the die sizes that gut was drawn through in the old days). My 5X frog hair is about 5lbs bs. Enormous for its diameter, but that diameter is needed to carry a fly of, say, size 14 or 16.
I hope that makes sense.
Cheers,
OT
[quote name='OwdTrout' date='Apr 24 2009, 08:01 AM' post='2268496']
With the low diameter monos there is a problem in the way they are used. I'll give an example.
An angler uses 5lb bs mono to his fly. When he sees the low diameter mono he buys 5 lb bs, that's what he uses. As a result two things happen. He gets more tangles and broken more often. "This low diameter mono is rubbish." He says. Then goes back to his old brand of standard mono.
This has happened loads of times, it shows a lack of understanding of the cast, and the uses of these monos. The advantage you gain from one of these monos is in increased bs of the mono. The tippet needs to be stiff enough to "carry" the fly through the cast, while being soft enough to give good presentation. The thing to do is choose a low diameter mono of the same diameter as your standard line. Probabily about 8 lbs. If he had done this the mechanics of the cast would not have been changed. The knot strength, though lower than his standard mono in 8 lbs bs, would be higher than that of the standard 5lbs mono.
That is why I stated the tippet size in X numbers, not breaking strain. X numbers are based on diameter. (They were the die sizes that gut was drawn through in the old days). My 5X frog hair is about 5lbs bs. Enormous for its diameter, but that diameter is needed to carry a fly of, say, size 14 or 16.
I hope that makes sense.
Cheers,
Hi OT
I also select my leader material on diameter. The Stroft I used is 0.12mm. That would be somewhere between 6X and 7X but it equates to around 4lb B.S.
The reason I chose it is because I wanted low diameter, not extra strength. If I used ordinary Mono of 0.12mm it would have a much lower BS and if I used Stroft of a higher dia it would be stronger but would negate the reason for using it in the first place, ie the low diameter.
I think maybe I will try 0.14, somewhere between 5X and 6X and see what difference it makes.
Cheers
Dave
With the low diameter monos there is a problem in the way they are used. I'll give an example.
An angler uses 5lb bs mono to his fly. When he sees the low diameter mono he buys 5 lb bs, that's what he uses. As a result two things happen. He gets more tangles and broken more often. "This low diameter mono is rubbish." He says. Then goes back to his old brand of standard mono.
This has happened loads of times, it shows a lack of understanding of the cast, and the uses of these monos. The advantage you gain from one of these monos is in increased bs of the mono. The tippet needs to be stiff enough to "carry" the fly through the cast, while being soft enough to give good presentation. The thing to do is choose a low diameter mono of the same diameter as your standard line. Probabily about 8 lbs. If he had done this the mechanics of the cast would not have been changed. The knot strength, though lower than his standard mono in 8 lbs bs, would be higher than that of the standard 5lbs mono.
That is why I stated the tippet size in X numbers, not breaking strain. X numbers are based on diameter. (They were the die sizes that gut was drawn through in the old days). My 5X frog hair is about 5lbs bs. Enormous for its diameter, but that diameter is needed to carry a fly of, say, size 14 or 16.
I hope that makes sense.
Cheers,
Hi OT
I also select my leader material on diameter. The Stroft I used is 0.12mm. That would be somewhere between 6X and 7X but it equates to around 4lb B.S.
The reason I chose it is because I wanted low diameter, not extra strength. If I used ordinary Mono of 0.12mm it would have a much lower BS and if I used Stroft of a higher dia it would be stronger but would negate the reason for using it in the first place, ie the low diameter.
I think maybe I will try 0.14, somewhere between 5X and 6X and see what difference it makes.
Cheers
Dave
Low diameter pre-stretched lines are always weaker than the other lines when subject to sudden jerks. The best way to overcome this is by keeping the rod at a better angle when fishing to allow it cushion the 'take'. I have used stroft in 4 and 5 lb bs, I did not have any breakage problems but I find it a bit too supple and soft for good turnover without building a tapered leader.
Personally I rarely use tapered leaders but use a straight-through cast. These days I usually use vanish fluorocarbon in 8 6 & 4 lb bs. and as I usually fish an eleven foot 5 weight lough style I would use about 28 feet of fluoro with 2 droppers tied onto the main leader with a simple two turn water knot, making sure that the dropper faces away from the fly line. I use 4 lb fluoro on my river rod, even for dries, about 10 to 12 feet straight through on a 9ft rod. For the loughs I also use 4lb vanish, one dropper at about 15 feet, point about 20/21 feet. Remember lough style what breeze you have is always from behind, allowing better turnover. I never cut the main leader when making droppers, that way if you do hit more than one fish and break, it is aslmost always one of the droppers goes leaving you with the other two flies still on the leader, and hopefully the bigger fish.
I also never cut the tag on the fly tight but I leave a tag to allow for some slippage on the knot under stress. Let's face it if the fish is put off by a 1/4 inch tag he sure as hell is going to be upset by the 10 feet on the other end of the knot.
When I use lighter/finer lines on the rivers I use shakespeare omni clear mono in about 6lb bs to 8 feet then I use four feet of the finer diameter joined with a double uni knot. The reason I use the 6 lb down to 2 or less is because the extra thickness and suppleness allows for more leaway when the fine line knot bites into the heavier mono. fine mono to fine mono will always risk the finer line cutting the slightly heavier line on the strike. Just think how many times fine monos have given you paper cuts when pulled down onto your finger sharply.
Personally I rarely use tapered leaders but use a straight-through cast. These days I usually use vanish fluorocarbon in 8 6 & 4 lb bs. and as I usually fish an eleven foot 5 weight lough style I would use about 28 feet of fluoro with 2 droppers tied onto the main leader with a simple two turn water knot, making sure that the dropper faces away from the fly line. I use 4 lb fluoro on my river rod, even for dries, about 10 to 12 feet straight through on a 9ft rod. For the loughs I also use 4lb vanish, one dropper at about 15 feet, point about 20/21 feet. Remember lough style what breeze you have is always from behind, allowing better turnover. I never cut the main leader when making droppers, that way if you do hit more than one fish and break, it is aslmost always one of the droppers goes leaving you with the other two flies still on the leader, and hopefully the bigger fish.
I also never cut the tag on the fly tight but I leave a tag to allow for some slippage on the knot under stress. Let's face it if the fish is put off by a 1/4 inch tag he sure as hell is going to be upset by the 10 feet on the other end of the knot.
When I use lighter/finer lines on the rivers I use shakespeare omni clear mono in about 6lb bs to 8 feet then I use four feet of the finer diameter joined with a double uni knot. The reason I use the 6 lb down to 2 or less is because the extra thickness and suppleness allows for more leaway when the fine line knot bites into the heavier mono. fine mono to fine mono will always risk the finer line cutting the slightly heavier line on the strike. Just think how many times fine monos have given you paper cuts when pulled down onto your finger sharply.
QUOTE (greg long @ Apr 24 2009, 11:54 AM)
Low diameter pre-stretched lines are always weaker than the other lines when subject to sudden jerks. The best way to overcome this is by keeping the rod at a better angle when fishing to allow it cushion the 'take'. I have used stroft in 4 and 5 lb bs, I did not have any breakage problems but I find it a bit too supple and soft for good turnover without building a tapered leader.
Personally I rarely use tapered leaders but use a straight-through cast. These days I usually use vanish fluorocarbon in 8 6 & 4 lb bs. and as I usually fish an eleven foot 5 weight lough style I would use about 28 feet of fluoro with 2 droppers tied onto the main leader with a simple two turn water knot, making sure that the dropper faces away from the fly line. I use 4 lb fluoro on my river rod, even for dries, about 10 to 12 feet straight through on a 9ft rod. For the loughs I also use 4lb vanish, one dropper at about 15 feet, point about 20/21 feet. Remember lough style what breeze you have is always from behind, allowing better turnover. I never cut the main leader when making droppers, that way if you do hit more than one fish and break, it is aslmost always one of the droppers goes leaving you with the other two flies still on the leader, and hopefully the bigger fish.
I also never cut the tag on the fly tight but I leave a tag to allow for some slippage on the knot under stress. Let's face it if the fish is put off by a 1/4 inch tag he sure as hell is going to be upset by the 10 feet on the other end of the knot.
When I use lighter/finer lines on the rivers I use shakespeare omni clear mono in about 6lb bs to 8 feet then I use four feet of the finer diameter joined with a double uni knot. The reason I use the 6 lb down to 2 or less is because the extra thickness and suppleness allows for more leaway when the fine line knot bites into the heavier mono. fine mono to fine mono will always risk the finer line cutting the slightly heavier line on the strike. Just think how many times fine monos have given you paper cuts when pulled down onto your finger sharply.
Thanks Greg
I think your style of fishing is very different to mine. I find fishing Loch/Lough style unutterably boring, just can't get into it myself. I don't like fishing from boats much anyway. Your river set up sounds more like my own.
My preferred method is fishing from a float tube with a 7'6" 3 or 4wt rod and a single 16/18/20 fly, usually a buzzer or a spider style.
I use a 6' furled leader to aid turnover and 3-4' of tippet attached loop to loop to the furled leader. I have been fishing like this for some time and have landed trout up to 17lb on this outfit with no problems using 4lb B.S. Airflo Sightfree Fluorocarbon. The problem is this is a bit thick and I was looking for a thinner diameter line, not necessarily stronger.
I agree that Stroft is a bit soft and think I will keep it for making pole rigs for coarse fishing.
Personally I rarely use tapered leaders but use a straight-through cast. These days I usually use vanish fluorocarbon in 8 6 & 4 lb bs. and as I usually fish an eleven foot 5 weight lough style I would use about 28 feet of fluoro with 2 droppers tied onto the main leader with a simple two turn water knot, making sure that the dropper faces away from the fly line. I use 4 lb fluoro on my river rod, even for dries, about 10 to 12 feet straight through on a 9ft rod. For the loughs I also use 4lb vanish, one dropper at about 15 feet, point about 20/21 feet. Remember lough style what breeze you have is always from behind, allowing better turnover. I never cut the main leader when making droppers, that way if you do hit more than one fish and break, it is aslmost always one of the droppers goes leaving you with the other two flies still on the leader, and hopefully the bigger fish.
I also never cut the tag on the fly tight but I leave a tag to allow for some slippage on the knot under stress. Let's face it if the fish is put off by a 1/4 inch tag he sure as hell is going to be upset by the 10 feet on the other end of the knot.
When I use lighter/finer lines on the rivers I use shakespeare omni clear mono in about 6lb bs to 8 feet then I use four feet of the finer diameter joined with a double uni knot. The reason I use the 6 lb down to 2 or less is because the extra thickness and suppleness allows for more leaway when the fine line knot bites into the heavier mono. fine mono to fine mono will always risk the finer line cutting the slightly heavier line on the strike. Just think how many times fine monos have given you paper cuts when pulled down onto your finger sharply.
Thanks Greg
I think your style of fishing is very different to mine. I find fishing Loch/Lough style unutterably boring, just can't get into it myself. I don't like fishing from boats much anyway. Your river set up sounds more like my own.
My preferred method is fishing from a float tube with a 7'6" 3 or 4wt rod and a single 16/18/20 fly, usually a buzzer or a spider style.
I use a 6' furled leader to aid turnover and 3-4' of tippet attached loop to loop to the furled leader. I have been fishing like this for some time and have landed trout up to 17lb on this outfit with no problems using 4lb B.S. Airflo Sightfree Fluorocarbon. The problem is this is a bit thick and I was looking for a thinner diameter line, not necessarily stronger.
I agree that Stroft is a bit soft and think I will keep it for making pole rigs for coarse fishing.
Sportsman, float-tubing = boat fishing with a wet arse.
QUOTE (greg long @ Apr 25 2009, 10:20 AM)
Sportsman, float-tubing = boat fishing with a wet arse.
Float tubing = boat fishing with finesse, comfort - and a wet arse
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